Another vote: One template vs two templates

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  • cgc0202 Friend
    July 10, 2008 at 12:46 am #130666

    Hello,

    I left before the vote whether to shift to one template was ever resolved. Some in the Forum are saying the two templates per month won??? This is a surprise for me because before I left, the one template per month template was ahead.

    However, what happened then that led to Joomlart sticking to two templates per month may need to be revisited.

    Why One Template per month?

    1. Attempts of the staff to create two templates per month always lead to beating the deadline, sometimes not met, and the resulting templates were not well received.
    2. The option of two templates per month is not helping many customers who really do not need them,
    3. The extra time should be spent instead creating one really good template per month, well written guidelines: manuals, how tos and FAQS, better support to address isssues arising and regular update (fixed versions) of existing templates — focusing on the top 5 (or more) most popular templates.

    Why Two Templates per month?

    1. Add more designers/developers/testers/support to deliver two good, supported templates per month. And if JA stuck to their published release schedule every month, that would be good too
    2. Joomlart advertised two new templates per month, they must keep their promise
    3. Joomlart is afraid to get sued, if they reneged on what they advertised
    4. Some members claim that Joomlart was able to provide two good templates before and so members must insist that they do it.

    Cornelio

    bigrk Friend
    July 10, 2008 at 3:35 am #258891

    Essentially there were too few of votes for the last poll to matter. I’ll let this stay for another day but I really should close this poll. JA is the only one to decide on how many templates there will be. Personally, with one or two nothing would really change.

    My mistake, I thought that this was posted in a public forum originally.

    Let the poll live on!

    1 user says Thank You to bigrk for this useful post

    1. cgc0202
    cgc0202 Friend
    July 10, 2008 at 4:29 am #258910

    <em>@bigrk 65451 wrote:</em><blockquote>Essentially there were too few of votes for the last poll to matter. I’ll let this stay for another day but I really should close this poll. JA is the only one to decide on how many templates there will be. Personally, with one or two nothing would really change.</blockquote>

    bigrk,

    Just how many is too few?

    and as a Moderator, you think it is in your power to decide what customers should and should not be able to do?

    Is there anything against the rules to have this poll? May I know? I read MiCCAS post above, and as far as I know, my post did not violate any rules. And this is a feedback forum that should allow customers to share their thoughts, in this case in the form of a poll.

    So can you please show me any rule that I violated? If not, as a Moderator, you should not let your own views on the matter decide how others can express themselves.

    It is obvious that Joomlart will always have a final say, but if that means Joomlart and Moderators will also control what customers can say, then why create a Feedback forum at all?

    If Hung thinks that this post is in violation of any Joomlart rule, then let him post here what this post violated. Then, he can close this poll.

    Personally, I think you are letting your own views:

    <em>@bigrk 65451 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    Personally, with one or two nothing would really change</blockquote>

    affect your role as a Moderator. Sure you can close this if you want, because you can do so. The question is, should you?

    As far as I understand, a Moderator should not be a censor, and act only when people are in clear violation of rules — there were quite a few postings here who have resorted to name calling, which are definitely against the rules. If that has happened, as a Moderator you should tell the individual is violating the rules

    But a thread should never be closed because there are individuals who overstepped their bounds. If you know that a person has violated the policy of discourse, then, as a Moderator, you have the right to tell a person so, and if he keeps on doing it, and feel so strongly — then delete that person’s post that is in violation.

    I have seen so many people, insulting others with name calling and worse, but they are allowed to do so — even if that is against the rules of proper discourse. As a Moderator, it should have been your duty to point this out to people who violated the rules. Instead, you focused on this thread, which I personally think is not in violation of any rule.

    If you cannot present to me any policy that clearly indicates that this post in violation, I express a strong protest for any action stiffling our rights to express feedback to Joomlart.

    I am going to write personally to Hung, as a pre-emptive move to protest this potential action to close this thread.

    Cornelio

    questbg Friend
    July 10, 2008 at 5:12 am #258917

    I would say, as so far (OK, only 6 votes at the moment) voted for ‘1’ (ie 100% support) the poll should stay for awhile longer.

    I wasn’t a member at the time of the original poll, and despite my asking, nobody could point me to the original thread so I could view the results!

    My vote went also for one per month. Reason: I paid my money and expected a ‘final release’of Teline II, it isn’t , it’s full of bugs and doesn’t work without a load of hacking around. Also, I signed for a year as I wanted support from JA staff, this is practically none existent.

    If one per month means better and less buggy templates, more support and better documentation, then I’m for it.

    cgc0202 Friend
    July 10, 2008 at 5:55 am #258921

    <em>@questbg 65480 wrote:</em><blockquote>I would say, as so far (OK, only 6 votes at the moment) voted for ‘1’ (ie 100% support) the poll should stay for awhile longer.
    </blockquote>

    Thanks for voting Chris. And, as you noted, I was surprised that it is 100%, so far. I hope more customers vote — where they are for one template or two templates per month.

    My own preference is that the thread should have the fate of any regular thread — end into oblivious (buried) when no one already is interested with the topic. This has been the policy of Joomlart, so I do not see why my post should be singled out.

    <em>@questbg 65480 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    I wasn’t a member at the time of the original poll, and despite my asking, nobody could point me to the original thread so I could view the results!

    My vote went also for one per month. Reason: I paid my money and expected a ‘final release’of Teline II, it isn’t , it’s full of bugs and doesn’t work without a load of hacking around. Also, I signed for a year as I wanted support from JA staff, this is practically none existent.

    If one per month means better and less buggy templates, more support and better documentation, then I’m for it.</blockquote>

    I did ask myself, and even looked through the forum, I could not find the original Poll, and yet somebody claimed in one thread that the two per month side prevailed.

    My point in re-opening the issue, is not to embarras Joomlart. In fact, it was Hung himself who initiated the original Poll, suggesting that Joomlart has seriously considered the idea.

    Whichever should prevail in a poll like this, my goal was to open a dialog, eventually. For example, if Joomlart decides to go to one template per month, I feel that those who expected two templates per month must be accommodated, until their subscription would lapse. This would require that Joomlart, if it plans to go to one template per month in the near future, must declare publicly any plan to move to one template per month — to allow for a transition period.

    This way, even those who joined expecting two templates per month would not be shortchanged. At the same time, if Joomlart deemed it is in its best interest to go to one template per month, they must have that option, in the future. And, any customer, who feels otherwise can decide accordingly.

    In fact, I do not see several customers here anymore, who were once Teline supporters and were passionate about their views to go to one template per month, so that Joomlart can use the extra time, as you suggested to provide better service. Their absence might indicate frustration, and decided to leave, like I did, at one point. Or did not renew their membership.

    Cornelio

    questbg Friend
    July 10, 2008 at 6:47 am #258928

    I think the release of the new template “JA Labra” is evidence enough that two templates per month is just not logical with the current staffing levels at JA.

    The template is nothing new, nothing too inspiring, but I think the worst thing, it has been released before it’s ready, yet again.

    As Hung Dinh said himself in the thread ‘does not work in Safari on Macintosh’:

    “Confirmed bugs which will be updated in the stable release at the end of this week”

    I just can’t see the point of releasing it when it doesn’t work. What’s the point sticking to a deadline, putting up the download and then telling people they have to wait yet another week for a ‘stable’ release?

    Surely, if people are paying this money for templates, they should work when they are released?

    If it takes yet another week for bug fixes, it’s evident that they can’t turn round a working template in the time allocated. They then leave us poor paying users to ‘bodge’ the code themselves whilst they go off and work on another ‘new’ template!

    Hung Dinh Friend
    July 10, 2008 at 11:46 am #258993

    <blockquote>Q: I am a paid customer and I should be able to use the stable templates. Why do I have to use the Beta version?
    A: You can choose to download and try the Beta or not. However, we are appreciated if you can use and report any problem to the forum so that we can update and provide fixes to the official releases.</blockquote>

    I think that releasing beta version is a good practice in software development. And if someone think that it is not right to do so, he should have under estimated the work of a template design.
    Anyway, I agree with you guys about reducing the template of month into 1. I can see the need and hear your voice about such proper request.
    However this should be announce in a good way when we have prepared for compensation for current member. Many of users here join for the number 2

    questbg Friend
    July 10, 2008 at 11:56 am #258995

    Good Day Hung Ding

    Many thanks for adding your comments to this poll.

    <em>@Hung Dinh 65571 wrote:</em><blockquote>I think that releasing beta version is a good practice in software development. </blockquote>

    Sorry, I don’t agree. Releasing ‘beta’ versions for free is fine, so that developers can submit bug reports, etc., so you can produce a finished product, but submitting ‘beta’ templates for paying users is not acceptable. We expect a finished product, which is what we have paid for.

    <em>@Hung Dinh 65571 wrote:</em><blockquote>However this should be announce in a good way when we have prepared for compensation for current member.
    </blockquote>

    This is not a big problem. If people signed up for 3 months, give them 6 months. If they signed for 6 months, give them 12 months.

    Same number of templates.

    Better templates, working templates = HAPPY customers = MORE customers

    I thank you for giving this matter serious consideration

    Chris

    cgc0202 Friend
    July 10, 2008 at 12:43 pm #259005

    Hi Hung,

    Thanks for responding. The main reason why I wrote to you in private was to ask your support that this thread be left like any other thread — not closed because a Moderator has a different opionion on the matter.

    I have not read anything under the rules of Joomlart that would indicate that this thread is in violation, so I protest strongly any action to close this thread.

    But, let me respond to your post.

    <em>@Hung Dinh 65571 wrote:</em><blockquote>I think that releasing beta version is a good practice in software development. And if someone think that it is not right to do so, he should have under estimated the work of a template design.</blockquote>

    I was involved myself in helping a software company get their product from earlier versions to stable version. As a token of appreciation for helping them test their product, and make it work. All of us who were involved in the beta-testing got free access to the product. In fact, I myself has a lifetime unlimited free access to the product, which would now cost a just under $100 per domain. As a further token of appreciation, the company owner of the software program sent me a personal gift.

    So, I understand the standard practice. To quote from Wikipedia:

    Software release life cycle
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle

    ************************************
    Beta

    Betaware is a nickname for software which has passed the alpha testing stage of development and has been released to a limited amount of users for software testing before its official release. Beta testing allows the software to undergo usability testing with users who provide feedback, so that any malfunctions these users find in the software can be reported to the developers and fixed. Beta software can be unstable and could cause crashes or data loss.

    A beta version is the first version released outside the organization or community that develops the software, for the purpose of evaluation or real-world black/grey-box testing. The process of delivering a beta version to the users is called beta release. Beta level software generally includes all features, but may also include known issues and bugs of a less serious variety.

    The users of a beta version are called beta testers. They are usually customers or prospective customers of the organization that develops the software. They receive the software for free or for a reduced price, but act as free testers.

    Beta versions test the supportability of the product, the go-to-market messaging (while recruiting Beta customers), the manufacturability of the product, and the overall channel flow or channel reach.
    ************************************

    The article link from Wikipedia gives the detailed stages of a software development:

    Software release life cycle
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle

    The above quote implies also that what is released to the general public must be a stable form.

    The general public must not be used as quinea pigs to test a company’s product, especially so it there is no support at all or quite meager. It is unconscionable to let the Joomlart customers fend for themselves during this stage. And, not being even provided any regular update of tixes.

    Personally, unless I really want to hasten the release of the product, I as a customer must not be used as a beta tester. The compensation of a free software is not worth the time.

    But, if I am used as a beta tester, the least that the company must do is to provide the product for free. Let me reiterate though that this must not become a standard practice.

    What is released to the general public, must be a stable version of the product.

    <em>@Hung Dinh 65571 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    Anyway, I agree with you guys about reducing the template of month into 1. I can see the need and hear your voice about such proper request.]</blockquote>

    I am glad to know that Hung. And, I think many customers will be happy too.

    <em>@Hung Dinh 65571 wrote:</em><blockquote>
    However this should be announce in a good way when we have prepared for compensation for current member. Many of users here join for the number 2</blockquote>

    This is the whole point of revisiting this poll Hung. That is why it must never be closed, as planned by bigrk. This will give the customers again.

    About six months has elapsed since the original poll. Participation in this poll will give the the customers the chance to express whether since the last poll, they still feel that they would still be more enthusiastic for one template or two templates a month.

    While I am a vehement proponent of the one template a month, I see the legal and ethical obligation of Joomlart to meet their contract agreement with those who joined Joomlart expecting two templates per month.

    I have analyzed the statistics of the membership of Joomlart. Since it would not be to the financial interest of Joomlart to stop cold turkey, I suggested a transition way back in January 2008. If Joomlart decides to go to one template a month in the future, Joomlart may reduce its financial liability recompensating customers by:

    1. Stopping the advertisement promoting two templates per month.
    2. Allowing a certain period so that those who would not accept a one template per month would have membership lapse.
    3. Or, as Chris suggested above — and even echoed by those who are proponents of the two template — a number of customers may be persuaded to accept a prolongation of their membership, as compensation.

    The above measures would minimize any actual financial recompensation of existing customers, thereby relieving joomlart of any potential financial hardship.

    And, since Joomlart had planned or thought to convert to one template per month prior to the start of the Poll in January 2008. This issue about recompensation would have been moot in about 5 months, and gone forever by January 2009.

    As it is, the lack of determination of Joomlart to make a final decision, one way or another has caused dissatisfaction on both camps.

    Cornelio

    TomC Moderator
    July 10, 2008 at 1:51 pm #259021

    <em>@bigrk 65451 wrote:</em><blockquote> Personally, with one or two nothing would really change.</blockquote>
    Unless you are willing to give it a chance, such is only your subjective opinion.

    bigrk Friend
    July 10, 2008 at 3:50 pm #259042

    <em>@cgc0202 65473 wrote:</em><blockquote>bigrk,

    Just how many is too few?

    and as a Moderator, you think it is in your power to decide what customers should and should not be able to do?

    Cornelio</blockquote>

    My mistake, I thought that this was posted in a public forum originally.

    mfcphil Friend
    July 10, 2008 at 4:22 pm #259047

    Great News!!!

    Did I read correctly……Did Hung suggest that members would be compensated if they ever went to one template a month

    <em>@Hung Dinh 65571 wrote:</em><blockquote>I agree with you guys about reducing the template of month into 1. I can see the need and hear your voice about such proper request.
    However this should be announce in a good way when we have prepared for compensation for current member. </blockquote>

    If I am reading this correctly I would say that this is a huge step forward for this company.

    WELL DONE:D 😀 😀

    toddah Friend
    July 10, 2008 at 4:58 pm #259048

    The answer here is pretty obvious to me: Add more designers/developers/testers/support to deliver two good, supported templates per month. And if JA stuck to their published release schedule every month, that would be good too. Why isn’t there more talk about this as opposed to 2vs1?

    TomC Moderator
    July 10, 2008 at 5:42 pm #259054

    <em>@toddah 65640 wrote:</em><blockquote>The answer here is pretty obvious to me: Add more designers/developers/testers/support to deliver two good, supported templates per month. And if JA stuck to their published release schedule every month, that would be good too. Why isn’t there more talk about this as opposed to 2vs1?</blockquote>
    You are both seeing and missing the point.

    In fact, the last part of your statement is further justification for going to a one-a-month schedule – and KEEPING to that one-a-month schedule. More time, less time contraint/pressure generally results in better capability of meeting deadlines.

    jwellman Friend
    July 10, 2008 at 6:30 pm #259061

    I voted for one template a month. I would rather have quality vs. quantity. Problem is not enough members are voting. The handful of voters cannot speak for the thousands who do not frequent the forum.

    Hung has assured the purchasers that they would receive two templates a month. I would suggest a bulk member email that is worded, “Due to time limitations, we are reverting back to one template a month beginning (month) 2008”, and see what kind of response he gets. If it is an overwhelming negative response perhaps something can be done to satisfy the multitude such as, “We apologize for the inconvenience and have added one month to your membership status.”

    Such a promotion could be too difficult but it may help calm the angry crowd (if in fact there is one).
    Personally I don’t care if it goes back to one. Building two templates a month is obviously too difficult, unless proper staffing is increased.

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